Curse

lutz · Jul 10, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The whole K-value thing... well, unless you've actually studied mathematics or engineering, you won't really understand how it works. It's not exactly a transparent thing. People can explain the effects of it. But chances are only like 2 or 3 people on this thread actually understand the math behind an ELO ranking system.
So, being a PvEer or a PvPer has nothing to do with not understanding it. It's more like XKCD, and hostile to liberal arts majors.

What the hell?

You don't need to study mathematics or engineering - you just have to understand basic mathematical and statistical analysis, and perhaps some basic logic and understanding of differential equations. There isn't any complex analysis involved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

But how many of your ranked 1500 or 2,000 guilds know that? Even if those 200's are bad, these new guilds still see an AT filled with single digit and double digit guilds even... That would deter a lot of people from playing in them. So raising the K-Value for these guilds in random play does help them in that respect. However, does that make them a better guild and make them better players? The answer ofcoarse is no. But overall, a ladder reset maybe instore to remove some of the dead guilds out of the game. When was the last reset anyway?

And thanks for the cheep shot btw...

Or, these rank 2k guilds could play a rank 200 guild ONCE and then realize "hey they're just as terrible as us" and come to the correct conclusion.

Even if you're rank 2k, if you play on ladder you'll face a rank 200 guild at least once.

pizzamonkey · Jul 10, 2009, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Once again a disappointing update. This one being moreso than ever. Anet's lack of caring for Guild Wars has really put me off. They only have like what.. 2 people working on the game? I really did like this game and it had so much potential but now I just don't care anymore until Anet starts caring.

Fril Estelin · Jul 10, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

and perhaps some basic logic and understanding of differential equations.

No differential equation or logic in ELO, it's purely analytical. For everyone's average math skill, ELO is quite complex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The whole K-value thing... well, unless you've actually studied mathematics or engineering, you won't really understand how it works. It's not exactly a transparent thing. People can explain the effects of it. But chances are only like 2 or 3 people on this thread actually understand the math behind an ELO ranking system.
So, being a PvEer or a PvPer has nothing to do with not understanding it. It's more like XKCD, and hostile to liberal arts majors.

For everyone's information and culture:
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rating

And (the really complicated ones are old):
http://xkcd.com/

Short · Jul 10, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

Wow, thats actualy pretty awesome update.

Why?

Because they didnt break anything.

QFT. I will just wait until next month before they nerf everything.

upier · Jul 10, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Dude!
I just started reading Harry Potter!
Holy smokes Batman, that's some addictive shit!

GW?
GW was boring pre-update.
The update changed nothing.
Thus - GW is boring post-update.

Luckily there are alternatives.

niek2004 · Jul 10, 2009, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Every month we are supposed to have a skill update, yet we did not get one again. I don't see what needs monitoring, everyone is playing the exact same build.

Every month we are supposed to have XTH, yet we did not get anything for 2 months now.

Increasing the K-value from GvG and HA matches has cost them like 5 minutes maybe.
Same pve decorations.
Same-ish pve mask.
Same pve games.

They did not put any time or resources in GW this month

Hollow Gein · Jul 10, 2009, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ele pl

Wow, thats actualy pretty awesome update.

Why?

Because they didnt break anything.

Couldn't agree more. After a little over 2 years of bad nerfs to my Rit, he's back to being fun to play. I'm just dreading the actual update. LOL

Still Number One · Jul 10, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

Every month we are supposed to have a skill update, yet we did not get one again. I don't see what needs monitoring, everyone is playing the exact same build.

Every month we are supposed to have XTH, yet we did not get anything for 2 months now.

Increasing the K-value from GvG and HA matches has cost them like 5 minutes maybe.
Same pve decorations.
Same-ish pve mask.
Same pve games.

They did not put any time or resources in GW this month

Reason being, they put a lot of effort into the pve community last month and are trying to see how those changes are going to effect gameplay and whether anything they changed is seriously overpowered.

honestly I think a.net is trying to decide what stance they should take on PvE right now. They stated their opinion on speed clears but honestly I think they are still evaluating and debating it. To a lot of people, Shadow form, SY!, and other skills are bad for the game, and to a lot of people, they are good for the game. A.net is probably in the process of deciding which stance they should take on that. That takes quite a bit of time and consideration to make sure you are doing the right thing. Either way, someone is going to be furious at you.

As far as PvP goes, they really do need to take the time to look at it and devote a lot of time toward it. Minor tweaks like they have been doing would be a bad thing at this point. We've hit a point in the meta where we are almost against a wall and running out of possible builds left to play. If they do minor tweaks (say nerf only Mind Blast) and not a major over-haul, then the game would really be down to one play-style and nothing else. So they really need to either just let the players adapt and turn the meta to our will (which is going to take months) or do a major over-haul (which would also take a few months to make sure they don't end up with a worse situation then we have now). Honestly as much as I push for skill balances to be on the second Thursday after an mAT every single month, I'm quite pleased they didn't do one this month. I don't see what good a minor tweaking would have done.

Keira Nightgale · Jul 10, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

so, pve is still shit

pvp : lol bloodspike and splint... wait MB eles still around. But they made the enviroment more friendly. I guess people will now call you "Sir" and offer you tea with muffins before raging out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollow Gein

Couldn't agree more. After a little over 2 years of bad nerfs to my Rit, he's back to being fun to play. I'm just dreading the actual update. LOL

Fun? Maybe. Shame is still inefficient as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO <.<

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Reason being, they put a lot of effort into the pve community last month and are trying to see how those changes are going to effect gameplay and whether anything they changed is seriously overpowered.

honestly I think a.net is trying to decide what stance they should take on PvE right now. They stated their opinion on speed clears but honestly I think they are still evaluating and debating it. To a lot of people, Shadow form, SY!, and other skills are bad for the game, and to a lot of people, they are good for the game. A.net is probably in the process of deciding which stance they should take on that. That takes quite a bit of time and consideration to make sure you are doing the right thing. Either way, someone is going to be furious at you.

As far as PvP goes, they really do need to take the time to look at it and devote a lot of time toward it. Minor tweaks like they have been doing would be a bad thing at this point. We've hit a point in the meta where we are almost against a wall and running out of possible builds left to play. If they do minor tweaks (say nerf only Mind Blast) and not a major over-haul, then the game would really be down to one play-style and nothing else. So they really need to either just let the players adapt and turn the meta to our will (which is going to take months) or do a major over-haul (which would also take a few months to make sure they don't end up with a worse situation then we have now). Honestly as much as I push for skill balances to be on the second Thursday after an mAT every single month, I'm quite pleased they didn't do one this month. I don't see what good a minor tweaking would have done.

Effort? What effort. They simply lowered casting time and some recharge for certain skills. It takes no effort at all, just 2 minutes, considering they didn't even test the mods they made (people crashing when equipping paragon skills). You have to be blind to not notice how incompetent they are. They do not have resources, hmm okay, don't expect me to buy GW2 then, if this is the advertisement campaign they are doing.

Anon-e-mouse · Jul 10, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sadchaos

To me I don't think it's too hard to process "Oh I'm in HM and I'm spamming Save Yourselves and I'm taking 0 damage. This might be a little overpowered hmmm" and to think of a balance.

I suggest you go and actually READ the skill description of [[Save Yourselves]], as if YOU are spamming it, the one thing YOU won't be doing is taking 0 damage.

Still Number One · Jul 10, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keira Nightgale

Effort? What effort. They simply lowered casting time and some recharge for certain skills. It takes no effort at all, just 2 minutes, considering they didn't even test the mods they made (people crashing when equipping paragon skills). You have to be blind to not notice how incompetent they are. They do not have resources, hmm okay, don't expect me to buy GW2 then, if this is the advertisement campaign they are doing.

Pretty sure it took a lot more than 2 minutes but whatever be ignorant. The effort they put in last month really doesn't matter anyway.

The fact is, PvE needs content updates in order to improve that part of the game, and PvP is in need of a large over-haul in order to improve that part. Minor skill tweakings at this point will do no good for either side of the game and we would all still be complaining that not enough was done. It takes more than 3 weeks to build new content and it takes more than 3 weeks to do a proper meta adjustment. It is a good thing to just not change anything instead of putting out a bad adjustment now or delay it a few weeks so that no one has time to test the new changes before the mAT and would have to end up trying out new builds during the tournament. Having to do that is a down-right joke and if they don't have a proper skill balance done on time, the best thing to do is not have one at all.

Keira Nightgale · Jul 10, 2009, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Pretty sure it took a lot more than 2 minutes but whatever be ignorant. The effort they put in last month really doesn't matter anyway.

The fact is, PvE needs content updates in order to improve that part of the game, and PvP is in need of a large over-haul in order to improve that part. Minor skill tweakings at this point will do no good for either side of the game and we would all still be complaining that not enough was done. It takes more than 3 weeks to build new content and it takes more than 3 weeks to do a proper meta adjustment. It is a good thing to just not change anything instead of putting out a bad adjustment now or delay it a few weeks so that no one has time to test the new changes before the mAT and would have to end up trying out new builds during the tournament. Having to do that is a down-right joke and if they don't have a proper skill balance done on time, the best thing to do is not have one at all.

No no, seriously it's not a matter of being ignorant

This is last month's update

Quote:

Update - Thursday, June 18, 2009

[edit]Skill Updates
For more information on these changes, please see the Developer Updates page.
[edit]PvE and PvP
Assassin
Palm Strike: increased recharge time to 7 seconds.
Elementalist
Ether Prism: increased recharge time to 20 seconds.
Mesmer
Visions of Regret: functionality changed to: "For 10 seconds, target foe and adjacent foes take 15..45 damage whenever they use a skill and 5..50 damage if not under the effects of another Mesmer hex."
Necromancer
Lingering Curse: increased Energy cost to 15.
Suffering: increased recharge time to 10 seconds.
Weaken Knees: decreased duration to 1..16 seconds; decreased Health degeneration to -1..4; decreased damage to 5..10.
Ritualist
Brutal Weapon: decreased duration to 10..40 seconds.
Guided Weapon: decreased duration to 4..10 seconds.
Resilient Weapon: decreased duration to 5..15 seconds.
Signet of Binding: functionality changed to: "You lose 200..50 Health. Gain control of target spirit."
Spawning Power: increased effect on Weapon Spells to 4% per rank.
Spiritleech Aura: functionality changed to: "Skill. For 5..20 seconds, all of your spirits within earshot deal 5..20 less damage and steal 5..20 Health when they attack."
Spirit Siphon: functionality changed to: "The spirit nearest you loses all Energy. You gain 15..50% of that Energy."
Vital Weapon: decreased duration to 5..30 seconds.
Wailing Weapon: decreased duration to 3..9 seconds.
Warmonger's Weapon: decreased duration to 3..13 seconds.
Weapon of Shadow: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
Weapon of Warding: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
[edit]PvP Only
Elementalist
Savannah Heat (PvP): increased Energy cost to 15.
Paragon
"Help Me!" (PvP): functionality changed to: "For 1..10 seconds, you gain 5..50 Health and other allies' spells targeting you cast 50% faster."
[edit]PvE Only
Sunspear
Cry of Pain: functionality changed to: "Interrupt target foe's skill. If that foe was suffering from a Mesmer Hex, that foe and all foes in the area take 25...50 damage and -3..5 Health degeneration for 10 seconds."
Vampirism: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 4..14.
Ritualist
Agony: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Anguish: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; decreased Energy cost to 15; increased spirit level to 1..11.
Armor of Unfeeling: decreased Energy cost to 5. Functionality changed to: "For 10..35 seconds, your spirits takes 50% less damage and are immune to critical attacks."
Bloodsong: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Destruction: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Disenchantment: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased Energy cost to 15; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Displacement: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Dissonance: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Earthbind: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Empowerment: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Gaze of Fury: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Life: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Pain: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Preservation: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Recovery: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Recuperation: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Rejuvenation: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..20.
Restoration: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..14.
Shadowsong: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased recharge time to 30 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..10.
Shelter: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Signet of Creation: increased recharge time to 30 seconds. Functionality changed to: "For 5..30 seconds, your next 1..3 Binding Rituals cast instantly."
Signet of Spirits: increased recharge time to 20 seconds. Functionality changed to: "Create three level 1..12 spirits. These spirits deal 5..30 damage with attacks. These spirits die after 60 seconds."
Soothing: decreased casting time to 1 second; decreased Energy cost to 15; decreased recharge time to 45 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Union: decreased casting time to .75 seconds; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Wanderlust: decreased casting time to 1 second; increased spirit level to 1..12.
Weapon of Warding: decreased duration to 3..8 seconds.
Paragon
"Brace Yourself!": functionality changed to: "For 5..12 seconds, the next time target other ally would be knocked down, all nearby foes take 15..75 damage instead."
"Can't Touch This!": functionality changed to: "For 20 seconds, the next 1..5 touch skills used against allies within earshot fail."
"Fall Back!": decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
"Find Their Weakness!": functionality changed to: "For 5..20 seconds, the next time target ally attacks, that ally also inflicts a Deep Wound and does 5..50 additional damage for 5..20 seconds."
"Go for the Eyes!": decreased recharge time to 0 seconds; increased chance to land a critical hit to 30..100%.
"Help Me!": decreased recharge time to 10 seconds. Functionality changed to: "For 1..10 seconds, you gain 15..90 Health and other allies' spells targeting you cast 50% faster."
"Incoming!": decreased Energy cost to 5; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
"Never Give Up!": decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
"Never Surrender!": decreased recharge time to 15 seconds.
"Stand Your Ground!": decreased Energy cost to 10; decreased recharge time to 20 seconds.
"We Shall Return!": increased Energy cost to 25; increased recharge time to 30 seconds. Functionality changed to: "All party members in earshot are resurrected with 25..50% Health and 5..20% Energy."
Anthem of Disruption: decreased casting time to 1 second.
Bladeturn Refrain: functionality changed to: "For 20 seconds, target non-spirit ally has a 5..20% chance to block incoming attacks. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally."
Blazing Finale: increased Burning duration to 1..7 seconds.
Defensive Anthem: decreased Energy cost to 10.
Signet of Return: decreased recharge time to 5 seconds.

There was no hyper thinkering around it. They just changed numbers in most cases, something that can be done in what? 10 minutes?. Consider that most of the suggestions have been given for months by players (even on this forum) and even then they managed to fill it with bugs. In fact this is the bug list

Quote:

Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused Signet of Creation to affect non-Binding Ritual spells.
Fixed a bug that prevented Signet of Creation from applying to certain Binding Rituals.
Fixed a bug that prevented the Junundu skill Choking Breath from interrupting some enemies.
Updated Soothing, Vampirism, and Preservation to use the correct casting animations.

[edit]Update - Monday, June 22

[edit]Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused Xinrae's Weapon, Vengeful Weapon, Nightmare Weapon, and Weapon of Remedy to heal the caster rather than the target.
Fixed a bug that caused Spirit Siphon to appear twice on the skill list when interacting with a Priest of Balthazar.
Fixed a bug that prevented the Guild Versus Guild Zaishen Combat Quest from properly updating.

[edit]Update - Friday, June 19

[edit]Bug Fixes
Fixed a bug that caused "We Shall Return!" to bypass Frozen Soil.
Fixed a bug that caused the Flux Matrix to damage party members.
Fixed a crash bug associated with "Brace Yourself!"
Fixed a bug that caused Order of the Vampire to give stolen health to the caster rather than the party member that was attacking.
Fixed the recharge time on Signet of Spirits by increasing it to the intended 20 seconds.
Fixed a bug when using Signet of Binding that prevented a spirit's defensive effects from applying properly.
Fixed a bug that prevented some players from turning in their Random Arena Zaishen Combat quests.
Updated the inaccurate descriptions for Well of Blood, Well of Power, Well of Suffering, Well of the Profane, and "Incoming!" (PvP).

[edit] Update 2 - Thursday, June 18, 2009

[edit] Bug Fix
Fixed a bug with Hero and NPC AI which would prevent them from effectively utilizing minion skills.
[edit] GuildWiki notes
After this update, many players are experiencing frequent lag spike.

You don't need some insight on Management, even a customer like us can notice the lack of resources and of a dedicated team.

aapo · Jul 10, 2009, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

It's sad that the community fails to understand the actual complexity of skill balancing.

- Sure thing. If it's so demanding job, why not spend the resources on things that actually improve the game rather than fiddling around with skill balance? You know, ability to record matches, UI changes, rewind-fast-forward buttons to observe, ability to see who's watching? All the small things that are so common in other games that you don't even notice.

niek2004 · Jul 10, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Reason being, they put a lot of effort into the pve community last month and are trying to see how those changes are going to effect gameplay and whether anything they changed is seriously overpowered.

honestly I think a.net is trying to decide what stance they should take on PvE right now. They stated their opinion on speed clears but honestly I think they are still evaluating and debating it. To a lot of people, Shadow form, SY!, and other skills are bad for the game, and to a lot of people, they are good for the game. A.net is probably in the process of deciding which stance they should take on that. That takes quite a bit of time and consideration to make sure you are doing the right thing. Either way, someone is going to be furious at you.

As far as PvP goes, they really do need to take the time to look at it and devote a lot of time toward it. Minor tweaks like they have been doing would be a bad thing at this point. We've hit a point in the meta where we are almost against a wall and running out of possible builds left to play. If they do minor tweaks (say nerf only Mind Blast) and not a major over-haul, then the game would really be down to one play-style and nothing else. So they really need to either just let the players adapt and turn the meta to our will (which is going to take months) or do a major over-haul (which would also take a few months to make sure they don't end up with a worse situation then we have now). Honestly as much as I push for skill balances to be on the second Thursday after an mAT every single month, I'm quite pleased they didn't do one this month. I don't see what good a minor tweaking would have done.

The way I see it, there are only 3 viable builds in GvG right now:
- Dual Paragon midline(barely sees any play at all).
- Mind blast ele/dom mes + FC corrupt with barbs midline.(90%)
- Hexes

Small changes such as:
- Nerf MB
- Nerf Corrupt
- Nerf Rip
- Nerf patient
- Bring back aegis, so teams will need shutdown again.(Right now everything has stances, and every teams needs at least one copy of Whirling.)

Would have done this game some good. It wouldn't be the perfect solution but it would have been better then the current meta.
-

Quote:

Originally Posted by aapo

-why not spend the resources on things that actually improve the game rather than fiddling around with skill balance? You know, ability to record matches, UI changes, rewind-fast-forward buttons to observe, ability to see who's watching? All the small things that are so common in other games that you don't even notice.

Why would you even want to obs when everyone is playing the exact same build, because there are no skill updates?

aapo · Jul 10, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

Why would you even want to obs when everyone is playing the exact same build, because there are no skill updates?

- And the million dollar question: Why is everyone playing the same build? Might it possibly have something to do with the effed up "skill balance" updates we've been having? One might even think that they're spoon-feeding us the next month's metagame when they buff select few skills without concern of big picture. If you want diverse builds, have diverse objectives. This is the job of a developer, not a skill balancer.

Ghost Omel · Jul 10, 2009, 12:46 PM // 12:46

.... So no need for people to change builds for another 2 or so month?....Well it cant get anny better right.... migh as well suck it up for next 2 month and adapt -_-

Tullzinski · Jul 10, 2009, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I am just glad that anet actually told us why they decided not to do skill update.

Also glad to see that wintersday in july announcement is up on the GW site a FULL WEEK ahead of the event!!!

Still waiting for the content update announcement though

Axel Zinfandel · Jul 10, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

I don't care that they didn't skill update this month. That's fine, because They made a HUGE one last time and made an entire class playable again. awesome.

However I would REALLY like them to fix a lot of the bugs still around, namely Signet of Spirits, which has great potential but is crappy right now

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 10, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

The way I see it, there are only 3 viable builds in GvG right now:
- Dual Paragon midline(barely sees any play at all).
- Mind blast ele/dom mes + FC corrupt with barbs midline.(90%)
- Hexes

I've seen more than that being played;
Balanced
2xwar, ranger, mindshock, mirror spike
dual or even triple ele builds
4 warrior builds

The meta is prime for the taking, can't really blame the skill updates this time around. You can overload on so many different play styles currently in the meta because there is no caster shutdown, hardly any anti melee skills/builds out there, blame the current players for not wanting or trying to run different things. Compared to a month to 2 months ago there is a whole lot more build variety already. I'd say they are all pretty viable.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Jul 10, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

The meta is prime for the taking, can't really blame the skill updates this time around. You can overload on so many different play styles currently in the meta because there is no caster shutdown, hardly any anti melee skills/builds out there, blame the current players for not wanting or trying to run different things. Compared to a month to 2 months ago there is a whole lot more build variety already. I'd say they are all pretty viable.

/agree, there is a lot more variety in the number of builds now. However... in a different since, you can look at it as, 2 Wars, 3 eles and 3 monks, or 4-5 Wars and 3 Monks... kinda profession stacked if you ask me and only a 1/3 of all the professions in the game are being used for 8 slots... So in that respect, some builds lack variety internally. So does that mean those 3 professions are "over powered" verses the other 7?

Dont forget the fact that...

Sins: Sin Splits (Rare), Omega Spike (somewhat seen)
Rits: Flagers (odd role)
Para: Used, but not really seen too much
Dervs: rarely used except for conditional spread...

Interesting how all the add on professions are not really used for GvG... but yet the power creep from the 2 games they came from, increased the original professions "power". So does that mean new skills should be produced for the "add on" 4 professions to make them more balenced to the original profs?